In this week’s party episode, we are welcoming all four coaches (Jim, Katie, Kevin, and Elena) onto the podcast for the first time ever to share their tips and tricks for how to crush a fall marathon or half marathon coming off a summer triathlon season. We hear about why marathoning is so hard on the body, how to structure a marathon or half marathon training week, favorite workouts for marathon and half marathon, mental training for long runs and races, and lots more. Jim and Katie also cover some fun coaching and training insights including season planning tips for 2025, aging and endurance sports, the magic of no-watch swimming, what happens when our training priorities or values come into conflict with each other, and a deep dive on a new paper covering principles of Norwegian endurance training. This episode is jam-packed full of something for everyone. Enjoy!
Coaching and Training Insights with Jim and Katie
Katie: How I’m approaching season planning for 2025
First golden rule: wait 2 weeks after your A race to sign up for any other races!!!
Made a list of: what I liked about this season, what I didn’t like about this season, what I want to focus on for next season
Look at major life events, travel, etc. and how busy the summer will be given all of that
Factors to think about:
Can I train in the terrain I will race in?
How long do I want my season to be?
What do I want my life to look like at different times of year?
What sounds fun?
Jim: Physical writing down a list makes the brain be very specific, deliberate and true to the author. It can be more effective than typing.
A rogue comment on my dad’s Facebook post about S2S: “So impressive that you are able to keep performing at such a high level!”
Funny! Because what’s so great about endurance sports is that you can continue to improve at a really high level through your 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond; especially true for female athletes
Jim: Men 40-44 is often the most competitive AG at HIM and IM.
Gen X is the first generation to embrace decades long training for endurance sports. We really don’t know how long high performance is possible. Some sports scientists are conjecturing that we can maintain a high level of performance into our 70s!
One more funny story / insight from S2S
Extremely long check in line the day before the race
GET OFF YOUR FEET!
I was the only person out of 200+ people sitting on the grass waiting in line for 45 minutes. If you know you know.
Seeing more and more athletes pick up “no watch swimming”
“Swam open water without my watch today. Was able to estimate but needed the mental break from tracking. Felt SO great and peaceful”
“Not sure if it’s data overload, but not wearing my watch in the pool has made swimming more enjoyable again. If it’s okay with you, I might keep doing that for a while?”
Jim: For historical context, Garmin registered the name "Forerunner" with the United States Patent and Trademark Office in August 2001 but released the first watches—the 101, 201, and 301—in 2003. We’ve only really had these watches for 20 years! In other words, the majority of Olympic gold medals, Tour de France, Kona and marathon wins have been without any training with smart watches. The four minute mile was run in 1954!
And for any activity you do regularly - whether that’s pool, run or bike session, your overall time, even estimated overall time, will be plenty to record in your training log. My bet is most of our athletes can approximate VERY close to their actual yards and miles spent in an unstructured workout.
Why? Because your body is very good at being efficient and stable; your brain highly values and prioritizes predictability and homeostasis.
As we always say, on race day no one cares about your training log. Literally tens of thousands of races have been won without a single workout being cataloged.
Addendum to some points we made in recent episodes:
I talked a lot about wanting to nail my off season and true wellness > fitness recovery
BUT then I went to Utah and two of my really good friends were in town so I wanted to trail run, at altitude, with some moderate mileage and elevation
Brought up the question of what to do when two important principles come into conflict:
Respecting the off season vs. connection > perfection
How I think about this: free pass for stepping outside of Z1 area when the goal is connection/play (as long as it isn’t all the time); otherwise, be as honest as possible with any solo training and movement
Took an off day before and after two BIG days to balance it out because I knew I had spent some higher intensity chips
Also, I reverted to a third principle: can you stand in front of a judge and say you are approaching the off season with honest intentions? We all know when we are and aren’t
Answer: mostly yes but we are not perfect and that is ok!
Jim:
Taking a few insights and confirmations from a new study: Training Session Models in Endurance Sports: A Norwegian Perspective on Best Practice Recommendations
Twelve successful and experienced male Norwegian coaches from biathlon, cross-country skiing, long-distance running, road cycling, rowing, speed skating, swimming, and triathlon were chosen as key informants. They had been responsible for the training of world-class endurance athletes who altogether have won > 370 medals in international championships.
Context - here’s how they define some zones:
Z1 - Low Intensity Training (LIT) - 60-72% max HR
Z2 - LIT - 72-82% max HR
Z3 - Medium Intensity Training (MIT) - 83-87% max HR
Overall, LIT sessions account for approximately 75–80% of all sessions. Athletes from all disciplines surveyed performed the vast majority of LIT sessions in Z1 and only to a limited extent in Z2.
MIT sessions (i.e., Z3) account for approximately 10–15% of all sessions across the annual cycle.
High Intensity Training (HIT) sessions comprised about 5–10% of all sessions and are mainly conducted as intervals and competitions in all sports.
Points from the study that The Endurance Drive regularly incorporates:
Hard–easy rhythmicity - Days of hard workouts (i.e., interval training or extra-long slow-distance sessions) are systematically alternated with days of easy low-intensity training in between. Most coaches advocate two to three hard training days (so called key sessions) per week during the preparation period (e.g., Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays)
Most of Endurance Drive athletes are on this exact schedule.
Mostly controlled, very few “all-out” sessions - Very few hard sessions (competitions not included) across the annual cycle are conducted to complete exhaustion, but rather with a “reps in reserve” approach. The main purpose with this approach is to increase the accumulated working volume at high (but not too high) intensities and ensure that the athletes are sufficiently recovered for the next key session. All-out sessions (which are very similar to the competition-specific demands) are only performed the last 3–6 weeks prior to the main competition of the macrocycle. Elite coaches seek sustainability and optimization through session programming, not maximization.
It’s not just about one epic session or one interval session, it’s a sustainable approach to training to achieve a manageable and appropriate accumulated work volume (or duration).
Combination of intensity zones - the coaches implement sessions that combine training intensities. Combinations of Z1/2, Z3/4, and Z4/5 are most often applied.
We like to use workouts such as:
Z2 runs with 20” - 2’ threshold intervals, flat or uphill
Z2 bikes with 120% 20-40” intervals
Swims - a good principle to employ is at least three speeds in your workout ie.,easy warmup/cooldown, medium intensity 100 - 400 yard/meter intervals and include some fast 25-50s,
Progressive intensity increases throughout the session(s) - Most hard sessions are performed with a slight progressive increase in intensity. The difference between the first and last interval may be 0.5 km/h during running intervals and 10–25 W during cycling intervals. Similarly, continuous long-slow distance sessions typically start at the lower end of the intensity zone, then gradually increase to the mid or upper end of the zone as the session progresses.
Start conservative, finish strong
Most athletes naturally gravitate toward going strong at the end as they begin to ‘smell the barn’.
Main Content: How to Crush your Best Fall Marathon (& Half Marathon)
Why is it difficult?
The human body is not designed to run 26.2 miles. There’s a reason most people hit the wall 18 - 20 because that’s where our liver and muscle glycogen becomes very depleted. The brain is a predictive machine and a glycogen hog. It runs on sugar and prioritizes glycogen to itself first. Your brain’s one job is to keep you alive. It does this by constantly running internal and external assessments. Running a marathon is a MAJOR internal threat! Once it senses low glycogen, it sends all kinds of signals to your muscles to slow down. You slowing down is paramount to its survival and it will do anything emotionally, mentally and physically to slow or stop you.
10+ limiting factors in the marathon. You don’t know which one, or combinations, will show up on race day:
Fueling
Muscle cramps / fatigue
Blister
GI distress
Dehydration
Environment - hot, humid, very cold, rainy & windy (Boston 2018)
Injury & Niggles
Race excitement - lack of impulse control
Logistics
You can have the perfect build up to the race but race day can bring lots of uncontrollable variables.
A lot can go wrong over 3 - 5 hours of pushing at sub-max intensity. There is a lot of discomfort over a long period of time. You need to be comfortable being uncomfortable.
You need to train your mind to respond to adversity and uncertainty. At 3 - 5 hours, that’s a lot of time to cope with what's in your head.
Great athletes welcome the pain cave and have mental tools to pull out in these situations. They respond to the situation as opposed to react.
When the mind gets cloudy, you need the ability to chunk work. For example, light pole to light pole or street to street.
And you need to be able to fight through rough patches. It rarely gets worse and most often it gets a lot better or back to neutral.
Like Ironman, you need to do a certain number of them in order to get good at them. Good marathoning is a multi-year project. Consistency year-after-year is key. It usually takes 5 - 6 marathons to really get it. You have to love the miles and process to be successful.
Tempo / Half Marathon and Marathon running can be difficult to recover from. You may need to give yourself more time to recover from a run workout, especially if you are coming from a Half Ironman / Ironman background where the running needs to be balanced with two other sports and is therefore not as intense as stand alone run training. You may need to take up to three days between harder sessions. You may need to get off the standard 7 day cycle and go to a 10 day training cycle.
Each marathon course presents different challenges:
Boston - need to be good at downhill in the first half and strong for the uphills in the back half.
NYC - need to be strong to run the hills late in the course
Chicago - fast and flat
CIM - California International Marathon - net downhill
Training
How do you structure a week for half and marathon?
Kevin: Monday-Easy / Tuesday - Track / Wednesday - Easy / Thursday-Hills or Tempo / Friday - Shakeout - Saturday LONG RUN, RP sets 8-10 weeks out.
Elena: 1-2– building one of those workouts into the long run ~ half the time
Jim: 1x-2X speed sessions with HM and 10K speed and then some marathon pacing in the long run during the last 10 weeks.
How do you set an athlete’s marathon pace?
Elena: by feel and workouts!
Kevin: By previous races or a Trial! It's always good to get a feel on Race Pace run. Even before your big block, on a week day run have them do 2 x 3 Miles at their goal pace, and can he/she sustain that for 26? Have them be honest.
Jim: I like in-the-field testing after an athlete has done a number of marathon pacing sessions. Use the principle: If you are standing in front of a judge what would you tell them is your honest marathon pace? I.e., what can you REALLY maintain for 26 miles.
How important is the long run and should I run longer than 2.5 / 3 hours? Why not?
Kevin: The long run is SO important. Your body needs to push volume, in order to run volume! But Running is TUFF on your body. My general rule of thumb is no longer than 18-20 miles for LR. Athlete dependent we can do 22 but in rare cases.
Elena: super important to hit your long runs, both mentally and physically, but you don’t have to go super long! I think 22 is a good cap for marathon training. Mentally– know how it might feel and how you’re going to get yourself to keep digging. Physically– know how to fuel and hydrate yourself for that long, give your body the stimulus to build fatigue resistance
Any specific mental training you do or recommend?
Elena: thinking through the emotions you might have and how you’ll handle them, having your A/B/C goal cascade, knowing your race strategy and committing to it.
Kevin: Treating Friday, like pre race day. Especially for the big days (W5-W2)
Favorite Half Marathon & Marathon workouts:
Elena: long run progressions, long run ladder (22 miler as the big kahuna with 5/4/3/2/1 miles at marathon pace), speed fartlek workout mid week (5x 30s on/off, 5 x 1 min on/off, tempo run, 5 x 1 min on/off, 5x 30s on/off)
Kevin: 1k Repeats for workouts, then the 3x5 RP day
Katie: Hills early in the season - hill sprints, hills & fast progression, etc. before transitioning into flatter track work
Jim: Friday - easy 1 hour Z2, Saturday - Long run with marathon pacing into Sunday Z1 / recovery run. Total mileage over 3 days is marathon-like, plus or minus. Double run days for my more advanced marathoners (and Ironman athletes)
The Race:
We have a lot of best practices on race week in other podcasts (here and here) so we’ll skip right to race day.
How do you warmup on race day?
Kevin: Foam roll, massage gun, lax ball. Then some dynamic (high knees, butt kicks, and some strides) SIMPLE
Elena: music, dancing, sit and get myself in the right headspace, dynamics, 1 mile warm up
How do you recommend pacing a half marathon and marathon? And can I bank time in the first half?
Elena: ”the first half is all about building your confidence to go attack the second half” → negative splits is the holy grail of marathon running!
Kevin: You have to look at your course, and talk to your coach about a plan. I am not totally against banking time (I did it at OC) but be smart with it.
What is your general half marathon and marathon nutrition plan?
Kevin: Carb w sugar before, carb drink before. Then a gel every 4(ish) miles (depending) and then I grab water and ice at each aid station to throw on myself.
Elena: gel every 20 mins, drink electrolytes every chance I get, dump water on me if it’s hot
Quick Tips:
Run the Tangents - courses are measured by the shortest possible way to run it. Don’t add any extra yards!
Might be obvious, but warm up! Even though it’s running an extra mile, it’s net positive for your body
Don’t put too much pressure on yourself to hit the “splits”... Some will be slower, some will be faster. Trust your game plan and keep an eye on your elapsed time.
Gear Pick of the Week
Katie: Leukotape for blisters / hot spots with running
Elena: your basic ankle resistance bands— so versatile, travel well, and a necessary part of running warm up and maintenance
Kevin: Dream Mask + Tape : )
Jim: Mine is an anti-pick of the week: Ketone-IQ I noticed no difference in appetite, mental clarity, etc. Dug into the scientific research and it doesn’t support such a product. Don’t fall for the hype. Half of the peloton may be using it because half of the peloton is either getting it for free or being paid to take it.